tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post2800874035797729099..comments2024-03-28T00:20:01.688-05:00Comments on Little Blog In The Big Woods: The water is back.Greenpahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17224906349154302210noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post-43502718667381237122009-07-14T13:09:55.840-05:002009-07-14T13:09:55.840-05:00Risa- thank you. Nice to hear.Risa- thank you. Nice to hear.Greenpahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17224906349154302210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post-88116280486479541642009-07-13T23:46:52.676-05:002009-07-13T23:46:52.676-05:00A year later I am still reading this post, over &a...A year later I am still reading this post, over & over. Thank you, sir.<br /><br />risa bDoyu Shoninhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00148504542232844586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post-82550932987885735152008-06-06T22:48:00.000-05:002008-06-06T22:48:00.000-05:00i've just recently started reading your blog (foun...i've just recently started reading your blog (found you through crunchychicken.. a heckuva gal). this is the first year my family has made an attempt at growing our own food. we have a small garden of raised beds with pole beans, cukes, acorn squash, watermelon, okra, the required tomato or two, raspberries, various herbs and a pair of peach trees. my home sits on your typical suburban lot in the heat of a houston summer. i would really like to know how to encourage as broad a range as possible of birds and beneficial critters to keep my little garden plugging along. i'm hesitent to enourage predatory birds as i plan to add a couple of chickens over the summer. my kids have learned, in a very short period of time, the benefits and trials of composting, peeing in the yard (but what will our friends think??) and thinking through the actions they take and the impact they leave behind.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post-88294097939090698772008-05-24T19:12:00.000-05:002008-05-24T19:12:00.000-05:00My 96 year old cousin lived on one place all her l...My 96 year old cousin lived on one place all her life. It has apple trees that were planted by her mother. She never had wormy apples. She taught me that you clean up every fallen apple and feed them to the chickens or the cops away from the orchard. That way the pests can't overwinter in the fallen apples. Seemed to work for her.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post-89136422437581524832008-05-14T09:54:00.000-05:002008-05-14T09:54:00.000-05:00Susana- and a couple others - we don't try to do ...Susana- and a couple others - we don't try to do "no till" in the garden. Potatoes, tomatoes, etc. just aren't adapted to it, and I don't have the time to experiment, though others have and do.<BR/><BR/>We tried the "potatoes under a foot of hay" deal years ago; and what WE got, was "hundreds of mice under a foot of hay, happily eating potatoes."<BR/><BR/>No weeds, though!<BR/><BR/>It's not the food gardens that are killing us- and a little tillage of crops, on suitable land, is also not the problem; it's the industrial scale tillage of totally unsuitable lands; either too dry, or too steep, or too wet (like tropical peat soils currently being cleared for oil palm...) that are disasters.<BR/><BR/>So- please weed your peppers in peace! No evil there, I think. :-)Greenpahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17224906349154302210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post-70299101862960240082008-05-14T00:34:00.000-05:002008-05-14T00:34:00.000-05:00Hi Greenpa-I would love to see photos of your orch...Hi Greenpa-<BR/><BR/>I would love to see photos of your orchard, etc.. It isn't enough for me for you to paint a picture with words. Is it possible to see some photos to get an idea of what planting thick and the sod and no monocultures really means? Also, I keep hearing tilling is bad, but how are you supposed to get ground ready for seeding?<BR/><BR/>Glad I visited your blog! Thanks.Susanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07451158788772700026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post-59091644803594934952008-05-10T17:13:00.000-05:002008-05-10T17:13:00.000-05:00Mike in Maine- hilarious. I can guess why you're ...Mike in Maine- hilarious. I can guess why you're only getting 5 bushels of apples from 75 trees, from your total lack of attention to detail. Gosh, you're "talking from 10 years of experience here" - and that's supposed to trump Greenpa's 30 - plus the all but PhD? And the post suffers from "a real dearth of specifics"? Could it be because- this was not a seminar on apple production? If you want to see the kind of detail Greenpa regularly cranks out, read his reply to Eva, right here, in this thread.<BR/>And, I have to say, I'm really curious as to what your expected motivation is for Greenpa to get in touch with you via email. Maybe he's eager for you to enlighten him some more? :-)<BR/>Larry D.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post-37670086198575765062008-05-10T06:16:00.000-05:002008-05-10T06:16:00.000-05:00The comments about the orchard "sound" inspiration...The comments about the orchard "sound" inspirational, and it's interesting to read, but I'd have to hear specifics to buy it, and in spite of the length of the post, there is a real dearth of specifics here.<BR/><BR/>What varieties do you plant?<BR/><BR/>What happens when the borers find them? or the plum curculio? or the fungi and the smuts? or the deer?<BR/><BR/>Do you pick off the mummies? Do you have time to thin fruits? <BR/><BR/>How much do you actually harvest? What's the quality?<BR/><BR/>I'm speaking also from over a decade of experience. We've rarely sprayed here, because the whole experience is disheartening, and we find, with bad weather and other crops to attend to, we just don't have time to spray.<BR/><BR/>We've used Surround, but that washes off, and it doesn't dissuade plum curculio and codling moth, etc. etc.<BR/><BR/>You may find that you are simply lucky. The complexities of orcharding are difficult to sort out.<BR/><BR/>I can tell you this: out of 75 trees, many established for 15 years, we got maybe five bushels of apples.<BR/><BR/>On the other side of town, a conventional orchard continues to sell huge quantities of perfect apples, BECAUSE THEY SPRAY.<BR/><BR/>I'm pretty much ready to say sayonara to our "organic" orchard and just devote time to my potatoes and cabbages.<BR/><BR/>If you have time, you can drop me an email: Mikeb at foxhill dot com.<BR/><BR/>Mike in MaineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post-85562012282704848192008-05-09T15:54:00.000-05:002008-05-09T15:54:00.000-05:00Great post! Just the thing to beat the gloom in t...Great post! Just the thing to beat the gloom in the news...<BR/><BR/>Thanks!shadowfoothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16024745044730301470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post-37556959569403887322008-05-08T20:59:00.000-05:002008-05-08T20:59:00.000-05:00Thank you Greenpa,Everything that you've just writ...Thank you Greenpa,<BR/><BR/>Everything that you've just written repudiates every.single.word. my father tried to indoctrinate me with as a child growing up on the "farm". This gives me hope, it gives me courage.<BR/><BR/>Again, my sincerest thanks. It's going to be printed out (don't worry, 2 pages to a side, double-sided ;-) and put up on the fridge.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09139324024103918923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post-80292785296459522052008-05-08T11:35:00.000-05:002008-05-08T11:35:00.000-05:00Greenpa, the running water sounds beautiful!Sort o...Greenpa, the running water sounds beautiful!<BR/><BR/>Sort of off topic, I read today that the City of Sherbrooke in Quebec has decided against running its municipal fleet on plant-based biofuels as they believe it's unethical to divert agricultural products from the food chain. Good news.<BR/>- LizAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post-15099915652701408122008-05-08T08:25:00.000-05:002008-05-08T08:25:00.000-05:00Wonderful about the water! I can only imagine the ...Wonderful about the water! I can only imagine the thrill of seeing/hearing it. And how ironic that your child can hear it but you cannot. Kinda like Moses seeing but never making it into the Promised Land...<BR/><BR/>Love your blog, I follow it regularly. I sort of disagree with your comments about permaculture, I think permaculturalists are coming around to your view that crops and feeding the cities are in fact important. The definition of permaculture has expanded, perhaps to the point of being meaningless, but at least it's not all that narrow anymore.<BR/><BR/>Also love your exchange with RC, hope you guys get to expand the conversation in the future.<BR/><BR/>I've been trying to follow your discussion of what's really going on with global food issues, but unfortunately am distracted by more current events in my life; got that whole discussion "bookmarked" for future reading/action.Zabethahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15707695353117499996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post-22640721852543759562008-05-07T21:15:00.000-05:002008-05-07T21:15:00.000-05:00Yes, please write a book! This was fascinating. I ...Yes, please write a book! This was fascinating. I have a suburban lot; the neighbors spray hideous things; we don't, and have lots of bugs; aphids are never a problem on my roses. Although they are on corn, for some reason (Possibly the aphid-dripping plum nearby...). But coddling moths are wicked on my Braeburn apple tree (though maybe if I remembered to pick up all the fallen apples in late fall, they wouldn't be. I am a lazy gardener). But I thought this year I would try kaolin clay spray on the apple; do you have any thoughts on that? (Pacific Northwest, by the way). Now I'm feeling smug about all the years of being too lazy/disturbed by petroleum product to use dormant oil spray. Kept meaning to ... hehe. Thank you for a wonderful, inspiring and educational post. Oh, and your hunger posts inspired me to write a commentary piece for my newspaper, addressing that and other issues.<BR/> NMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post-68825846308386188812008-05-07T19:41:00.000-05:002008-05-07T19:41:00.000-05:00Feeding our way out of the pink mealy bug or the t...Feeding our way out of the pink mealy bug or the thrip won't wash. I might also mention we have been overrun by 5 foot iguanas {escaped non-native pets} that eat the plants even while you are chasing them away. BIG bites out of the leaves. But they don't bother me. And that's my way of saying, what good would fertilizer do in that case? We did already have the borer beetle attack and the plants have fought that off. I'll do some fertilizing experiments, but I fear we are way past that stage. If you had an email I would send some photos of the old mealybug plague and the new thrip attack.<BR/>I completely agree with you that the Feds are currently totally useless unless you happen to own a failing investment corporation on Wall Street.<BR/>Yet, the new pest is attacking food production heavily, so they will eventually have to deal with it.<BR/>I'm considering experimenting with imported predators and hope I get lucky.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post-70688954137697360832008-05-07T09:59:00.000-05:002008-05-07T09:59:00.000-05:00Great post! I have been using dormant sprays on my...Great post! I have been using dormant sprays on my backyard fruit trees, and haven't liked doing it a bit. I guess you just need someone to tell you its okay to skip it. To the anonymous post asking if this is appropriate for intensive backyard plantings I would say absolutely. I have let several different plants become aphid sanctuaries the past couple of years (a rose bush, fava beans, and various bolting winter crops). Before long the host plant and the rest of the garden is overrun with soldier beetles and lady bugs. I do have a problem with slugs, and have diligently been using beer traps and picking them at night. But if anyone has better ideas I would be happy to hear them.Texicalihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16372119586196214491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post-51836944851745361222008-05-07T09:53:00.000-05:002008-05-07T09:53:00.000-05:00RC - very cool! On scale- my place looks half wil...RC - very cool! <BR/><BR/>On scale- my place looks half wild, because we can't keep it looking like neat orchard. Some farmers are REALLY put off by the "weeds", which is a barrier to wider adoption; not that it doesn't work, but the demand for neat plantings is deeply engraved on a lot of brains.<BR/><BR/>In fact, scaling up brings some advantages- lots of the pest dynamics get easier as you get bigger.<BR/><BR/>On your thrip - ouch. My exceptional pest was an introduced mite- solution was primarily genetic, using material that had co-evolved with the pest. Lucky for me, I already had those genetics in my mix. Not so easy for plain growers who don't have genetic reference collections (I do).<BR/><BR/>One thing I'd try is extra fertilizer for some of your trees (don't fertilize ALL of them!! you won't learn anything!) I'd even double the fertilizer for some, and watch the tree's performance through the next season.<BR/><BR/>Time after time, I've seen my plants ignore pests once they are "fully fed"; even really tough ones like stem borers and weevils. I wouldn't wait for the USDA, I'm afraid; most of the feds are lost and leaderless right now...Greenpahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17224906349154302210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post-53413224167318460352008-05-07T09:44:00.000-05:002008-05-07T09:44:00.000-05:00Eva- " None of it ever gets away; we've tested." ...Eva- " None of it ever gets away; we've tested." <BR/><BR/>One of the most useful experimental directions we've found is to intentionally "overdo" something; early on.<BR/><BR/>You find a lot of received wisdom that does not hold up that way; it took my 20 years to get over the universal recommendation of foresters to NOT fertilize trees when they are young. Bull. (not that it's simple!)<BR/><BR/>20 years ago we fertilized some plants in a formal study; 2 blocks at 0 lbs/N/acre, 2 blocks at 100 lbs, 2 blocks at 200 lbs, and 2 blocks at 300 lbs. N/acre.<BR/><BR/>200 and 300 lbs of Nitrogen / acre are WAY high for trees, though some people put that much on corn- or used to, when N was cheapish.<BR/><BR/>Test: multiple soil samples, at 4", 18", and 24" depths. Nobody takes soil samples that deep, usually, but we were looking for escaped fertilizer.<BR/><BR/>Results, 8 months after application, in the 300 lb blocks; at 4", N at 80 ppm (an ok range for crops) ; at 18', N at 5 ppm; at 24"; 0 ppm.<BR/><BR/>ie- none, whatsoever, is getting past the huge root systems, even at very high application rates.Greenpahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17224906349154302210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post-36895670286927168682008-05-07T09:32:00.000-05:002008-05-07T09:32:00.000-05:00I cant begin to thank you enough for this, you hav...I cant begin to thank you enough for this, you have eloquently put in clear and scientific rational then things I had "hunches" about but had neither the space nor experience to try.Koryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12359855844113965258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post-79170743369102468242008-05-07T05:40:00.000-05:002008-05-07T05:40:00.000-05:00Very encouraging for a former Minnesotan who spent...Very encouraging for a former Minnesotan who spent her summers as a child on Little Boy Lake outside Longville. In these decades since my fondest desire is to move back. Thanks for taking good care of your part of the big woods. Yesterday my seedlings spent the morning out in the sunshine getting ready to go into the garden in a couple weeks. When I brought the trays back into the house, a wolf spider hitched a ride. My first thought was "Greenpa said"... Later I spotted him again with a little fly in his mouth. Changed lives start with changed thinking. Thanks for lots to think about.<BR/><BR/>SusanWILDBLUESbysushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05721938956504857045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post-83428457095700348542008-05-06T21:44:00.000-05:002008-05-06T21:44:00.000-05:00Your water sounds beautiful Greenpa. It makes me ...Your water sounds beautiful Greenpa. It makes me glad.Theresahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03908227916944431265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post-13346796189465736022008-05-06T16:56:00.000-05:002008-05-06T16:56:00.000-05:00I looked for the Post on Monday, found it today. F...I looked for the Post on Monday, found it today. For anyone that farms, news of any local water appearing is as good as it gets.<BR/>I learned a great deal from reading the post, not only was it great because of the water announcement, but also because of the information it contained.<BR/>I could spend about a week and pound out 100,000 words to compare and contrast our experiences, but I will give the very short version. I have lived and done tree farming as well as small husbandry and vegetables in the tropics since 1979. The details are very different, as my scale now is just a few acres, and was never more than that, no winter here, so more insects, all the fruits are completely different<BR/>because we have no freeze cycle, no apples here for instance, YET, I am pretty much on exactly the same regimen you are on and I have been doing that since the beginning.<BR/>In one case I did lease a 17 acre farm on the edge of a Rain Forest, and that was already planted out in old growth fruits and shade coffee.<BR/>Essentially, the concept that the less we do to the soil, the better off the trees are, is true.<BR/>I have had two severe insect attacks in 29 years. In 1996 the pink hibiscus mealy bug arrived from the lesser Antilles and pretty much wiped out half of my ornamental nursery and most of the fruit on the fruit trees that year.<BR/>But I only used agricultural soap until the USDA, 18 months later, introduced a tiny wasp predator.<BR/>The other scourge started a year ago, it is an unknown origin thrip and we are using soap because the modus is that it is sucking all the new leaves dry, doesn't bother the fruits. Photosynthesis is affected. The USDA is doing nothing, plans to do nothing, and I am worried. They say all the money went to Iraq, so they can't put anyone on the case. Makes sense. Make war, not food.<BR/>Well, I am cutting the Bible of my tree life short here in the middle of the first verse. It's that or go on for another eternity.<BR/>The idea of growing and managing 160 acres is scary to me as I work on an intimate level with the trees and other plants. I admire those persons like Greenpa that use these methods on massive areas. It is something one must be obsessed by, otherwise, don't even think about doing it. Thank you very much for the post Greenpa and I look forward to more.<BR/>Meanwhile, know anyone high up at the USDA? We need a predator really bad. They can go on a junket to a beautiful island {Vieques} to do the research. No one has identified this thing yet and records show it on other islands since 2002. I am getting desperate. Not just my stuff is getting clobbered, but all of the clients I sell trees to are now in trouble too. Of course, lunatic that I am, I would never consider pesticides to be an option. At least it is not a fungus or virus, but with enough debilitation, they will move in next.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post-69260407211869911362008-05-06T15:30:00.000-05:002008-05-06T15:30:00.000-05:00Inspiring post, lovely news about your water!I'm c...Inspiring post, lovely news about your water!<BR/><BR/>I'm curious how you test your runoff: None of it ever gets away; we've tested.<BR/>This is a question of concern to me as I have a container plant nursery quite close to the river and I want to both minimize and check runoff.<BR/><BR/>EvaEJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10547029683066393031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post-19992122967180790542008-05-06T14:25:00.000-05:002008-05-06T14:25:00.000-05:00I loved this post. Thank you. More things to thin...I loved this post. Thank you. More things to think about and ponder.<BR/><BR/>I love the "how-to" posts, or posts about your history on the land and the reasons behind them.Brittahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08632546869870977212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post-46982059496483935762008-05-06T13:09:00.000-05:002008-05-06T13:09:00.000-05:00Hey Pa,Jeez, the creek is running! This is really...Hey Pa,<BR/><BR/>Jeez, the creek is running! This is really outstanding. Congratulations, and I'm looking forward to seeing it.<BR/><BR/>For everybody else, I can see you can tell this is a big deal, and that's good. The process has indeed been gradual; I can remember the first years we had a few clear seeps from our side of the valley feeding pools for most of the summer, and a couple of wet years when there was just barely a trickle through most of the farm if you squinted right. And boy is it gratifying when the little tributary of runoff in the spring, completely clear, runs into the mud runoff in the main creek. But now we don't get runoff from that little tributary any more; it all sinks in.<BR/><BR/>I do imagine the "floods" last year had something to do with this, pushing a tipping point in our recharge; maybe it'll be less next year, maybe not. You see, I don't know if this was mentioned earlier, but those floods wiped out a lot of houses and roads in our neighborhood- but on our land they just sunk in. Our pond just barely registered any runoff at all. We felt lots of effects from neighboring damage, and had a time dealing with the extremely wet soil on the place, but there wasn't really any flood in the watershed we control. Also, very gratifying. Of course, the flip side of that is "boy, if most other folks were doing it this way, it would have saved a really large number of dollars, associated with a lot of property and sanity." Which is kind of simultaneously uplifting and depressing.<BR/><BR/>But we're used to that, right? And I gotta say, if you can manage to make the depressing part mostly just the rest of the world, and you can tell you're making just a little progress on that– well, that's budging icebergs. It does take a while. Perseverance is the most certain way to get something done.Beelarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15593065681242071073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2703718837080088488.post-14510413148587981222008-05-06T13:06:00.000-05:002008-05-06T13:06:00.000-05:00Many thanks for all the great comments here folks....Many thanks for all the great comments here folks. I'll try to address most of them in the future. Crazy busy just at the moment.<BR/><BR/>One thing: Kai, and Susan Och: yes, it was a wettish year last year, but we've actually had much wetter ones, over all- with no water in the valley as a result.<BR/>Snow was on the high normal side, and the melt was unusually slow; but we rarely have much snow runoff anyway- the mice make lovely bath-tub drains right through the frost, among other things- none in a corn field.Greenpahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17224906349154302210noreply@blogger.com